- I live alone.
- I work hybrid, but when I go into the office, it's more or less empty and I spend all my time on zoom calls.
- My family lives far away.
- I'm single.
Most weeks, my only social interaction is at the local bar, where I'm a regular, or various dates from apps. Excesses of both of these is unhealthy in different ways.
I've been pushing myself to go to meetups and hobby groups, but my hobbies are mostly solo ones (probably a bi-product of spending time alone), and I have terrible decision paralysis. It ends up being a lot of work, and not at all something I'm excited about or that seems _fun_.
I don't really have a solution here, but something tells me I'm not alone in being in this situation.
As kid I spent time in an old fashioned Russian serf type village, where a bunch of families lived together and worked a bunch of strips of land. It was the best time I ever had. Everyone had a job to do, and they were happy to let you help. The tasks you were given seemed fulfilling and meaningful.
Today is horrible. Nobody lives with family or knows neighbors around here. No more church. There are some craft clubs, but what's the point? Anything you can make pales in comparison to what you can get for a couple of bucks from Amazon. Growing a garden also seems pointless when you see the local grocery store. There are a bunch of hobbies but they also seem pointless when you look at a few Youtube videos and see all the popular channels doing exactly what you would like to but a million times better.
Honestly if I didn't have a kid I'd probably hang up my hat, but I do need to figure out how to make sure the kid doesn't have this experience.
(p.s. moving back to the Russian serf village is not the solution, that place is now ruined, young people moved to the city, old people died off or drank themselves to death. One guy hung himself.)
> There are some craft clubs, but what's the point? Anything you can make pales in comparison to what you can get for a couple of bucks from Amazon.
This is unhealthy.
> There are a bunch of hobbies but they also seem pointless when you look at a few Youtube videos and see all the popular channels doing exactly what you would like to but a million times better.
This is unhealthy.
Over a decade ago, I had to accept that I'll never be the best at anything or even better than huge swaths of people in my line of work or in my hobby, and that's perfectly okay. There's only one best in the world. Most people who play basketball will never ever come close to the NBA. Setting out with failure in mind (even when you're not in pursuit of perfection) is great. Pointless, dumb play is amazing.
When I was a kid, I didn't compare my Lego play time with others. Or the time I spent riding my bike down a hill and jumping off it onto the grass to professional stunt performers.
The end product isn't what you walk away with; it's the time you spend enjoying doing something.
(On the flip side, pick the project. You don't need to compost to plant a garden, and you don't need to learn how to shave sheep or spin yarn to learn knitting.)
> Well, good luck enjoying anything when you're surrounded by environmental feedback that points to its futility.
You're only surrounded by this feedback if you already buy in to the ideology that if you're not The Best™ at something then it's not worth doing.
This is a very toxic perspective.
The millions of people who learn to program/woodwork/paint/cook/etc. by watching YouTube videos certainly don't buy into this ideology, and have no problem enjoying it. I think the issue less "environment feedback that points to futility" and more your own perspective here.
People have hobbies for many reasons, "socially acceptable excuse to interact with people" is just one of them, as is "demonstrate exceptional mastery".
> Picking up hobbies so that you have a socially acceptable excuse to interact with to people is ass-backwards.
It is and WAS most normal thing in the world. Some people did it subconsciously, them being interested I people lead them to be interested in the same things as those people are interested in. Others did it consciously "everyone seems to gather at pool, let's go to pool". Or just, "I am going to bake a cake to have excuse to give it to people and to get compliments".
Doing things and hobbies to be with others, to impress them was normal human behavior for millenia.
And? How does one magically snap their fingers and change their hard-to-control brain? OP has a point in everything they're saying. Calling it unhealthy doesn't magically fix (inverse) their (very real/probably populous) perspective.
> How does one magically snap their fingers and change their hard-to-control brain?
There is no magic solution. But recognizing that there is a problem, it can be solved, and deciding to put effort into solving it are what it takes to fix it. This is step one.
Most mainstream (I use that term loosely; the internet has made a lot of things very accessible) hobbies have a lot of content producers. Some of them only make gorgeous things with expensive tools. There's always some producers who are more educational and show their mistakes and thought process.
I know "stop consuming addictive media" isn't trivially easy, but you get the added benefit of avoiding content that isn't as educationally beneficial.
If you can find a community garden, they're way better than the grocery. No offense or anything. Plus you get to meet your local community. I miss mine, now that I'm in the suburbs.
You might look into it. It fosters a lot more than just healthy food. It builds neighborhoods, reclaims land and makes friends in the community. They're great.
All of these suggestions are optional. The biggest part of community is it is a forced coexistence. Anything optional takes willpower and most people just will not do consistently.
For a small proportion of abused people. It usually works very well for 95%+ of the people in it. It’s definitely not worth throwing it in the trash for those kinds of numbers.
Your memories of that Russian serf village are distorted and incomplete. Most subsistence farming work is far from being happy and fulfilling. Talk to adults who spent decades living that way. They might not have been lonely, but their lives were bleak in most other ways. Why do you think so many left as soon as they could? Why did those who remained turn into alcoholics?
Further, your kids seeing you do these things will think you are the best at it or will be enthralled trying to emulate superior efforts with you. I can't paint. My painting efforts are embarrassing. My daughter, keen on painting, saw my horrific effort today and thought it was amazing. If we watched an artist on YouTube and then tried to paint together, she would absolutely enjoy that too.
If you don't have an internal appreciation of simple crafts (gardening, making something) then your children can help you find purpose in it.
> moving back to the Russian serf village is not the solution, that place is now ruined, young people moved to the city, old people died off or drank themselves to death. One guy hung himself.
Is it possible that you have a distorted perception or memory of life in that village? If it was such a happy place, why did so many young people move away, why did old people drink so much, and why did one person commit suicide?
> Growing a garden also seems pointless when you see the local grocery store.
Maybe a greenhouse would be needed, but you can grow backyard produce of much higher quality than is typical in grocery stores. Then offer it your neighbors. Some will show gratitude. Those are the ones to try to make friends of.
I'm in a similar situation in a very rural area, except probably worse to some degree. I do have a couple of family members local, but there's no bars, zero dating potential, no hobby groups, and no events for people my age whatsoever.
I've seriously considered moving to a city, but then I'll have to lose the tiny bit of social interaction I actually do have, my family. In some ways I want to believe I could build a better social life in a city and be happier since there's more opportunity on all fronts, but I don't actually believe that would be the case.
I've never even met my coworkers, my social life is non-existent. It's actually crazy to think it's even possible to end up in a situation like I have.
The loneliness has seriously messed with me mentally at this point and I really can't see things getting better anywhere I am. I'm not sure I could muster the will to move at this point anyway. I think I may be too far gone.
I don't have a fix for you, but I completely get where you're coming from.
mate honestly that sounds like you're cutting off your legs to save your toes.
you should take a backpacking holiday in a busy city somewhere (overseas?). If you have fun, try a working-holiday in a new city for a couple weeks. Maybe one you've been thinking of moving to?
I've done this before within the country and ultimately just found it extremely stressful. I could never get comfortable in the AirBNB, I constantly felt like I'd just shown up and invaded someone's apartment.
I absolutely hate traveling, I just want to live somewhere and for it to become home.
You're probably right about the cutting off legs part, though I've simply lost sight of an exit from my current situation. I own a house, I have responsibilities, and I'm burnt out from work. I actually had a plan in place to move before I burnt out, but that fucked up everything.
You need to take a break man. Change something. Fair call if you don’t like travel. Just go live anywhere else for a month. Pick a city and pretend it’s home. Rent your place out. If you like it make it 2 months. If it’s shit you’re just back to square 1, no big deal.
That sounds hard to deal with! I haven't had the exact same experience, but I have spent periods of my life living in places where it was hard to build a social support structure.
One thing I noticed: it sounds like you're thinking in terms of the two most extreme decisions (stay "here" forever vs. "leave" your family to move to the city). You might be able to leverage your remote-work position to try different places, in case one of them might be a good fit for you.
Sublet an apartment or stay in a long-term AirBnB in a city that you're considering, and during that time (a couple of months, maybe?) dedicate significant energy to meeting people. If it doesn't work, then you have a better grasp on the reality of the situation - if it does, then you can extend your experiment from months to year(s).
Hey, can relate. Your situation seems tough, but you're right, you're not alone in this situation. Something I've noticed as I got older is just how isolating the US can be. The predominate culture is for children to go to college (oftentimes far away from family), then move to a city (again far away from family).
People don't go to church or other religious gatherings as often so people don't build community that way as much anymore.
And now that work is remote/hybrid, as you said, even when you go into the office there isn't much there. I think the US is really failing from an institutional level in that the only reliable way I have ever had of meeting new people was schooling. A dream of mine is that community centers become well funded and become just a place to hang out (like a library but with more activities) and can help facilitate bringing communities together and building those relationships.
But I hope something changes for you, and you do something to change it. Best of luck!
My solution, and I respect its not for everyone, is learn to cook and start inviting people around for weekend lunch/dinners. I think this is more personal and better than heading to bars and restaurants.
I find this is a really good way to build a social network and become part of groups. It may be a little intimidating at first, but as it becomes regular, it's easier to add new people to an existing friend group than many new people together.
If people get along start expanding to other things. Weekends away or days trips to do hobby x. Bring new people in. Understand sometimes you have to move on from people that dont fit. But overall put in the effort to be the organiser.
I think people sometimes forget as an adult you often have to put in effort to build new relationships. It doesnt happen as organically as it did when you were young. There's huge value in it and we'll worth it I feel.
I definitely recommend meetups. I think the key is to accept that some will be duds, but keep trying. And don’t overspecialize.
I moved to a new big city a while back, and meetups (from Meetup.com but just because I don’t like FB) were a huge help. It was hard at first, I picked some really bad ones but then I found better ones. It’s still hit or miss but I know the good ones are out there.
I have ended up with one I go to regularly — for a topic I’m not even super interested in, but I’ve met very interesting people there. Plus one I used to go to that I could drop in on if I felt lonely, it’s not topic-based. I even lead one myself, once in a while, going to art shows: that’s pretty stressful for me but also rewarding. Enough so that I’ve thought about starting another, unrelated one.
In about a year of doing this, I have made two friends and am probably making a third, and I have a backlog of meetups I’d love to try out if my schedule shifts and I could go to them.
It felt a little weird in the beginning, because I’ve lived in a few different cities and always made friends randomly. Honestly I felt like a bit of a loser, like who goes to meetups? But as far as I could tell it was meetups or spend all my time in the bars, and I really didn’t want to get stuck in the latter groove. And there’s nothing loserish about recognizing your situation and working to improve it.
(A lot of meetups involve drinking anyway, so if you like bars it’s easy to combine.)
I am with you. I just want to share that succeedsocially.com has a lot of straightforward advice in a clean, ad-free format. In particular it talks about social issues more likely to afflict HN readers ("I hate small talk" "nobody likes my niche interests" etc. <3) I've found it helpful personally, maybe someone here will too.
Two ideas for you to consider:
1. If you can, get a dog, it will force you to socialize, plus they will keep you company when it's just the two of you.
2. If you can, do one year remote in a traditionally friendly society. E.g I have a friend in Medellín, Colombia. 50% of her apartment building are expats, they do stuff all the time.
Big city seems to be the key. Loneliness is the default in a modern city, because we can. It used to be that daily needs led to friction that sometimes (if people were social enough) led to interaction (introverts were much less likely to engage so it usually took a lot of friction before interaction becomes possible). Schools (and universities) still provide the largest field for such interaction. Everything else has been largely automated away.
If we accept that this is a problem, then we should think about ways that force people to be near each other again, somewhat artificially. This is different than building a bar or making a meetup and expecting people to come - only the most extrovert want to go there.
The most important thing is removing cars. Get people to walk, you’ll visit more local places and see more local people rather than a random arrangement of people all over the place.
You’ll also bump in to people while walking which doesn’t happen in cars.
If you go to the same bar all the time and haven't made friends there, try a different bar. And maybe consider those dates as opportunities to make friends in addition to romantic pursuits. A lot of my social group connected originally via dating apps.
I have some friends at the bar, and I'm definitely considered welcome as a regular, and always have a good time, etc. But they're mostly drinking buddies, and not much more outside of that, however I'd like to try harder to change that.
What do you imagine a friend is? Mostly they are drinking buddies, or <some shared activity> buddies. I have not had a friend in over 30 years who was anything more than someone I knew from an activity we both did or a place we both frequented.
People (especially men) pretty much stop having "deep" friendships once they are adults.
Men can develop deep friendships with each other as adults, it "just" takes enough mutual interest and flexibility to spend a lot of time together. That is much harder if your time is already spoken for my family, a partner, children, work, hobbies, etc. Think of all those sitcom friends who just show up at each others' houses and hang out.
Friendship is fundamentally when two people want to spend time talking with each other (without an ulterior motive like sex or commerce).
Sitcoms are not real life and never were. They are made up situations designed to make writing funny scenes easy. Sitcoms are not how people actually ever socialized or behaved.
I hope that's not true. Though I'll admit most of my deep male-male friendships date back to high school and new ones are very rare. Most new deeper friendships I've formed have been with women, who I think frankly make better friends.
My wife's closest 10 or so friends are all from school era, 20+ years ago.
My close friends are all people I've met as an adult - I'd consider them deep friendships: we've travelled together, catch up regularly, know each others' parents and kids, discuss the issues of the world, etc.
But, like school, you need enough time around a common place or interest to develop all that. In my cases, it was usually shared, social offices or having friends in common.
Yeah, I feel like if you're someone who likes hanging out and talking to people at bars, you can probably do that at lots of bars and meet more new people. I don't think it's unusual to get to know a bunch of people but not form any major friendships (happens at workplaces all the time). You may just need more people in the mix to find those friendships. They're hard to find! Especially if you're a little older and maybe more discriminating about who you want to connect with and spend time with.
Try volunteer work, for example at an animal shelter.
Where meeting new people is hard and you may feel that you're intruding, the opposite is true for volunteer work. By design they need you, accept you and embrace you.
You're definitely not alone, and it sucks that getting involved in stuff isn't "automatic." But there are lots of paths.
Amateur sport leagues are one good solution, if you played something in high school or college.
Improv comedy classes are another classic great one, for total beginners.
If you're in a big city, there's a shocking number of beginner classes if you look. Acting, pottery, ballet, baksetball, stand-up comedy, acro-yoga, all sorts of stuff. Mushroom foraging in the park, depending on the season.
It definitely takes some time to figure it out. (And sadly there's less now post-COVID as some stuff closed and never re-opened -- but there's still enough!) You're right it's a lot of work to research and go to, and you won't like 80% of it. But you'll quickly find the 20% you do, and you'll have funny horrible stories to tell about the other 80%. :)
I (like other commenters) can understand where you coming from. There are, of course, lots of solutions if you are willing to try them.
Out of curiosity, have you tried the easy ones, like regularly inviting other folks over for a group dinner? Or joining a rec league, or a shared activity group?
The latter is nice, as it's a weekly forcing function.
>have you tried the easy ones, like regularly inviting other folks over for a group dinner?
Frankly, this made me laugh out loud.
1. Who am I going to invite? It's not like I have old connections to rekindle.
2. I have a tiny apartment and couldn't exactly host many guests. My table could theoretically sit four if I rearranged some things (the max it's ever had is 2)
3. Considering I'm not exactly a socialite now (It's been a while since I went to a dinner party or anything), I have absolutely zero confidence in hosting one myself.
So, maybe this is all in my head, but it doesn't seem easy to me at all.
You live in an apartment? Who else lives on your building? In a decent sized building I bet you’re not the only lonely person. Find the other ones, and create some social thing that’s easy to say yes to.
Dinner is straightforward. Other excuses include book clubs, movie viewings, crafts, community garden, volunteering, etc.
For a dinner, if your apartment is small, use a common space. If you don’t have a common room, do it outdoors. If you don’t have picnic tables, go to a park. If you don’t cook, have a potluck. If nobody cooks, order in.
Don’t allow yourself to give up before you start. Focus on:
(1) identify a pool of people worth interacting with (Eg neighbors, hobby enthusiasts, co-religionists)
(2.a) find where those people gather and join them
(2.b) if they don’t gather yet, convene them yourself in a way that is easy for them and you.
This whole thing is absolutely work though. 2.a is way easier than 2.b.
I think you are taking for granted a huge body of knowledge that some of us are lacking.
Hosting a dinner gathering is complicated. What foods do you serve? What time? Do you complete all the food prep before guests arrive? If you are chatting over appetizers, how do you invite your guests to the table for the main meal?
There's not just one right way to do these things, but if you're trying to host a dinner party for people who you're not already comfortable socializing with, each little thing can feel like "Am I doing this right? <panic>"
Order takeaway - it's perfectly acceptable with the right framing. We have people around quite regularly and I like cooking, but still defer to takeaway at times: you're busy, or getting home from work too late to cook, heard about a new restaurant and wanted to see how their [dish] compared to others.
Don't overthink it. If you start early, have a drink first. If you want people to move to the table, say "Hey - I'm starving. Let's sit and eat!" My step-mother-in-law, literally every dinner she hosts says after initial chitchat, "Can I interest you in a cleansing ale?" Haha.
If you're nervous about what you've made, say "This is the first time I've made this, so apologies in advance!" If you don't know what to start with, just buy good bread and good oil or fancy butter and no one is going to execute you for that - all you have to do then is slice the bread. Save any pressure for the main meal. For dessert, break out a fancy block of chocolate and make a "Laboured all day over this" joke. Amongst friends, no one gets fussed about this.
You could literally say, "You know, I've never hosted anyone for dinner. I made a resolution to get comfortable doing it and the year's almost over. I'm trying to get 2-3 people together for a practice run."
Or to a sociable person you have some rapport with: "I have a couple of friends I'd like to have around for dinner but honestly, I'm pretty hopeless and have no idea what I'm doing. Assuming you know what you're doing, can you show me through it?"
Or find another hapless rookie and give it a shot together. Promise each other it will be an awkward disaster, so the only way is up.
Yea, don't worry too much. If someone invited me into an almost empty apartment and gave me spaghetti and just seemed interested in talking to me I would be really appreciative. I have friends (some of whom who are really good cooks) but almost nobody that I don't already know puts effort into talking to me or becoming friends so that would feel super nice.
Covid definitely was a game changer for us (I am married). It reduced the number of in-person contacts with people outside our household by an order of magnitude, decimated the number of car miles we drove, and changed our attitude to being at home. Even as Covid is now somewhat less of an issue, some of those habits have stuck.
> something tells me I'm not alone in being in this situation.
You're not. All human society worldwide is optimized for isolation.
Compartmentalized. Even the more communal cultures (like Middle-Eastern or Asian with extended families living in the same household for multiple generations).
We have distinct "spheres" that may sometimes overlap a little but with almost no interfaces to mingle between them: Work, home, civilian, government, policing, shops, services, online, offline...
This is very common with the immigrants where I live. So many friends struggled with that in their first 3 years or so. They all end up making friends over time, and then the process becomes easier as they meet friends of friends.
There is not a specific method to it. You just hack at it until you find yourself surrounded by friends.
I made friends by connecting with people who worked on similar things. We invited each other for a drink and ended up hanging out. I've also met a lot of friends through other friends. Our groups just merged over time. It helps to be the one organising things and inviting others. I don't remember making many friends in meetups, but perhaps that's just me.
This isn't really an actionable response, but what I did in this situation was move to where my friends were. I'm lucky in that the majority of the people I met in college happen to live around a particular area of the country, so I transferred there after much pestering on their part over the last few years. I honestly haven't been this happy in years.
- I live alone. - I work hybrid, but when I go into the office, it's more or less empty and I spend all my time on zoom calls. - My family lives far away. - I'm single.
Most weeks, my only social interaction is at the local bar, where I'm a regular, or various dates from apps. Excesses of both of these is unhealthy in different ways.
I've been pushing myself to go to meetups and hobby groups, but my hobbies are mostly solo ones (probably a bi-product of spending time alone), and I have terrible decision paralysis. It ends up being a lot of work, and not at all something I'm excited about or that seems _fun_.
I don't really have a solution here, but something tells me I'm not alone in being in this situation.